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  4p control panel questions.
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   Author  Topic: 4p control panel questions.  (Read 369 times)
Trimoor
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Re:4p control panel questions.
Reply #18 on: August 11, 2004, 11:30:47 PM
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Here is a much cheaper 64 input keyboard encoder:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13718&item=6112110192&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

If you don't want to bid on ebay, send an email to
WarriorWolfSpike@aol.com
and he will sell you one directly for $35.00 plus $5.50 shipping

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Re:4p control panel questions.
Reply #19 on: August 12, 2004, 12:12:55 AM
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Yeah, should've mentioned that I've thrown the gamepad idea out the window due to the cost.

That encoder looks interesting and the price is right, but...

A - Do you really get what you pay for?
B - Are the inputs labelled like the I-Pac's?

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Re:4p control panel questions.
Reply #20 on: August 12, 2004, 12:34:09 AM
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I just ordered it yesterday, so I don't know.
Try emailing the guy and ask him.

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Re:4p control panel questions.
Reply #21 on: August 12, 2004, 05:58:25 AM
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Hmmm... I was about to buy Hangstrom's KE-72 for my latest cp.  Please let us know how this works out.

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Re:4p control panel questions.
Reply #22 on: August 12, 2004, 07:13:33 AM
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Quote from: Sir Auros on August 12, 2004, 12:12:55 AM
Yeah, should've mentioned that I've thrown the gamepad idea out the window due to the cost.

That encoder looks interesting and the price is right, but...

A - Do you really get what you pay for?
B - Are the inputs labelled like the I-Pac's?

I only heard about that encoder a couple of day ago.  From what I can gather from the E-bay ad -

Question A - Yes, you get a 64-input encoder, probably no ghosting.  That's the Pro's.  The Con's - These are non-programmable AFAIK.  Not bad for MAME, but if you want to play NES or ZSNES emu's that don't let you re-map keys and that key isn't one of the 64 - you're out of luck.  You're also out of luck if you want Button 1 to be one key for one emu and something else for another emu.  The other drawback is you are dealing with Molex connectors rather than screw terminals.  The final drawback is that I think there are about 40 of these left from a production run in the late 70's, so if yours breaks, or you want to build another panel for a friend, you're back to square one.

Question B - No but that really doesn't matter - You get a keymap with the encoder.  If you want Button 1 to be Left Alt and Left Alt is Connector 4 Input 4 on the KeyMap, that's where you wire Button 1.  It is direct mode so you have a ground and wires to each button which is good (direct mode from a wiring standpoint, I suspect the CPU is multiplexed).

Your best option for a 4P CP is the I-PAC/4, but if cost is a major concern, you can do what you want with the KeyWiz from http://www.groovygamegear.com/ (or KeyWiz ECO if you don't mind soldering), but you will have to share some inputs.  See my reply to CobraTracker in this thread for details.

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=21870;start=msg177854#msg177854

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Re:4p control panel questions.
Reply #23 on: August 12, 2004, 05:32:13 PM
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Quote from: Tiger-Heli on August 12, 2004, 07:13:33 AM
Quote from: Sir Auros on August 12, 2004, 12:12:55 AM
Yeah, should've mentioned that I've thrown the gamepad idea out the window due to the cost.

That encoder looks interesting and the price is right, but...

A - Do you really get what you pay for?
B - Are the inputs labelled like the I-Pac's?

I only heard about that encoder a couple of day ago.  From what I can gather from the E-bay ad -

Question A - Yes, you get a 64-input encoder, probably no ghosting.  That's the Pro's.  The Con's - These are non-programmable AFAIK.  Not bad for MAME, but if you want to play NES or ZSNES emu's that don't let you re-map keys and that key isn't one of the 64 - you're out of luck.  You're also out of luck if you want Button 1 to be one key for one emu and something else for another emu.  The other drawback is you are dealing with Molex connectors rather than screw terminals.  The final drawback is that I think there are about 40 of these left from a production run in the late 70's, so if yours breaks, or you want to build another panel for a friend, you're back to square one.

Question B - No but that really doesn't matter - You get a keymap with the encoder.  If you want Button 1 to be Left Alt and Left Alt is Connector 4 Input 4 on the KeyMap, that's where you wire Button 1.  It is direct mode so you have a ground and wires to each button which is good (direct mode from a wiring standpoint, I suspect the CPU is multiplexed).

Your best option for a 4P CP is the I-PAC/4, but if cost is a major concern, you can do what you want with the KeyWiz from http://www.groovygamegear.com/ (or KeyWiz ECO if you don't mind soldering), but you will have to share some inputs.  See my reply to CobraTracker in this thread for details.

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=21870;start=msg177854#msg177854


i agree with you on the most part but i am pretty sure zsnes allows for custom control mapping.  most of the emulators i plan on using do.  as for the molex, i think i will be bypassing them completely and soldering wires and connecting to screw terminals.
if anyone wants the keymap, i can post it.  one thing i noticed tho, is that it is slightly off..  the map shows that pin 1 on each bank is assigned to a keycode, when in fact it isnt.  pin 1 and pin 10 are grounded, so each key on the keymap is off by 1 pin.
its a big board too, like cd case size..

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Re:4p control panel questions.
Reply #24 on: August 12, 2004, 06:24:34 PM
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Could you post the keymap?
I just bought one and would like to prepare.

Also, what type of molex connectors are they?
Is it .1" pin spacing? (same as ide cable)

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Re:4p control panel questions.
Reply #25 on: August 12, 2004, 07:17:28 PM
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the pins fit in my ide cable so i guess it is that standard spacing.  there are 8 banks with 10 pins each.  the first and last pin in each bank is ground.  remember, the first pin is ground so the key for CN1-1 is actually pin CN1-2 and so forth.  there is also a 5 pin header, CN9, for the keyboard connector.  it comes with an AT type connector.  if you want to connect to a ps/2 connector you must make the following connections, (or buy the adapter):

CN9 (keyboard connector header) > PS/2 plug (standard pin numbers)
1 > 3
3 > 4
4 > 5
5 > 1

Key Map for Two Bit Score 64-key Encoder by Lupine Systems
Pin           Key      Pin           Key
CN1-1   1      CN5-1   F9
CN1-2   2      CN5-2   F10
CN1-3   Q      CN5-3   F11
CN1-4   W      CN5-4   F12
CN1-5   A      CN5-5   A
CN1-6   S      CN5-6   E
CN1-7   Z      CN5-7   F
CN1-8   X      CN5-8   G
CN2-1   3      CN6-1   F1
CN2-2   4      CN6-2   F2
CN2-3   E      CN6-3   F3
CN2-4   R      CN6-4   F4
CN2-5   D      CN6-5   F5
CN2-6   F      CN6-6   F6
CN2-7   C      CN6-7   F7
CN2-8   V      CN6-8   F8
CN3-1   5      CN7-1   -
CN3-2   6      CN7-2   ]
CN3-3   T      CN7-3   L ALT
CN3-4   Y      CN7-4   [
CN3-5   G      CN7-5   L CTRL
CN3-6   H      CN7-6   ‘
CN3-7   B      CN7-7   `
CN3-8   N      CN7-8   ENT
CN4-1   7      CN8-1   9
CN4-2   8      CN8-2   0
CN4-3   U      CN8-3   O
CN4-4   I      CN8-4   P
CN4-5   J      CN8-5   L
CN4-6   K      CN8-6   ;
CN4-7   M      CN8-7   .
CN4-8   ,      CN8-8   /

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   Author  Topic: Encoder Comparison Pages Back Online  (Read 608 times)
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Re:Encoder Comparison Pages Back Online
Reply #2 on: August 12, 2004, 05:23:33 PM
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i would be interested in seeing an updated review.
i just got the Two-bit encoder and soldered a ps/2 splitter for it last night.  i am now waiting on my joysticks/buttons so i can test it out on a temp cp..
if you need more info on it, i posted a fairly informative email about it in another thread and am willing to post whatever other info i have, (pictures, key map, etc.).

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Re:Encoder Comparison Pages Back Online
Reply #12 on: August 14, 2004, 09:00:09 AM
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Quote from: Bgnome on August 12, 2004, 05:23:33 PM
i would be interested in seeing an updated review.
i just got the Two-bit encoder and soldered a ps/2 splitter for it last night.  i am now waiting on my joysticks/buttons so i can test it out on a temp cp..
if you need more info on it, i posted a fairly informative email about it in another thread and am willing to post whatever other info i have, (pictures, key map, etc.).

Yep, I'd like the info.  Also, I was curious whether the grounds are common on it (There are two grounds on each of the eight 10-pin Molex connectors).  Are the grounds on Connector 1 common with the grounds on Connector 8?

Having said the above, I would prefer to concentrate the updates more on the minipac, I-PAC VE, and KeyWiz Max 1.5, as the two-bit encoder is about 40 units, NOS from the early 80's and only available on E-bay for probably the next six months, while the others are current production models.

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Re:Encoder Comparison Pages Back Online
Reply #13 on: August 14, 2004, 09:00:10 AM
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anyone have any experience with that Two-Bit Score encoder?  That sounds like the ultimate multiplayer encoder if it works well.

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Re:Encoder Comparison Pages Back Online
Reply #14 on: August 14, 2004, 09:13:28 AM
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Quote from: Hoagie_one on August 14, 2004, 09:00:10 AM
anyone have any experience with that Two-Bit Score encoder?  That sounds like the ultimate multiplayer encoder if it works well.

That's what we were talking about (besides USB vs. PS/2).  Bgnome has one.  Non-programability is a big drawback if you want to use it for more than MAME.  The price is right, though . . .

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Re:Encoder Comparison Pages Back Online
Reply #15 on: August 14, 2004, 09:44:09 AM
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Quote from: Tiger-Heli on August 14, 2004, 09:00:09 AM
Quote from: Bgnome on August 12, 2004, 05:23:33 PM
i would be interested in seeing an updated review.
i just got the Two-bit encoder and soldered a ps/2 splitter for it last night.  i am now waiting on my joysticks/buttons so i can test it out on a temp cp..
if you need more info on it, i posted a fairly informative email about it in another thread and am willing to post whatever other info i have, (pictures, key map, etc.).

Yep, I'd like the info.  Also, I was curious whether the grounds are common on it (There are two grounds on each of the eight 10-pin Molex connectors).  Are the grounds on Connector 1 common with the grounds on Connector 8?

Having said the above, I would prefer to concentrate the updates more on the minipac, I-PAC VE, and KeyWiz Max 1.5, as the two-bit encoder is about 40 units, NOS from the early 80's and only available on E-bay for probably the next six months, while the others are current production models.


i posted the keymap here:
http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=22871;start=msg188768#msg188768

original email about how it works:
http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=22851;start=msg186817#msg186817

pins 1 and 10 are common ground and connected to eachother on each bank, so you really only need to hook up 1 ground wire.  my best guess is that there are still over 60 left, but it is in short supply.  also, judging by the keymap, A, E, F, and G are repeated so that in essence only gives you 60 independent inputs.  i havent gotten my buttons in yet so i havent been able to do any thorough testing but i did manage to get at least 36 keys pressed using strips of aluminum foil and my fingers.  at the moment, i am soldering wires to it and will be mounting it into a plastic vhs box from blockbuster, (barely fits),  along with barrier strips.

one thing i will note, but i dont know if it is just my setup.  i am using it with a laptop which has only 1 usb input and 1 ps/2 input.  i soldered  a ps/2 splitter together according to a schematic i found online which lets me use a mouse and kb at the same time.  i have a usb kb plugged in the usb slot.  my splitter works but my encoder board seems to stop working sometimes.  i have been testing the board by pressing the f1 button that is directly on it.  i am fairly certain the soldering job is ok.  but my trackball unit does have 3 superbright red leds in it so im wondering if its just an issue of limited power supply..

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Re:Encoder Comparison Pages Back Online
Reply #34 on: August 18, 2004, 04:47:35 PM
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Quote from: Bgnome on August 14, 2004, 09:44:09 AM
Quote from: Tiger-Heli on August 14, 2004, 09:00:09 AM
Quote from: Bgnome on August 12, 2004, 05:23:33 PM
i would be interested in seeing an updated review.
i just got the Two-bit encoder and soldered a ps/2 splitter for it last night.  i am now waiting on my joysticks/buttons so i can test it out on a temp cp..
if you need more info on it, i posted a fairly informative email about it in another thread and am willing to post whatever other info i have, (pictures, key map, etc.).

Yep, I'd like the info.  Also, I was curious whether the grounds are common on it (There are two grounds on each of the eight 10-pin Molex connectors).  Are the grounds on Connector 1 common with the grounds on Connector 8?

Having said the above, I would prefer to concentrate the updates more on the minipac, I-PAC VE, and KeyWiz Max 1.5, as the two-bit encoder is about 40 units, NOS from the early 80's and only available on E-bay for probably the next six months, while the others are current production models.


i posted the keymap here:
http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=22871;start=msg188768#msg188768

original email about how it works:
http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=22851;start=msg186817#msg186817

pins 1 and 10 are common ground and connected to eachother on each bank, so you really only need to hook up 1 ground wire.  my best guess is that there are still over 60 left, but it is in short supply.  also, judging by the keymap, A, E, F, and G are repeated so that in essence only gives you 60 independent inputs.  i havent gotten my buttons in yet so i havent been able to do any thorough testing but i did manage to get at least 36 keys pressed using strips of aluminum foil and my fingers.  at the moment, i am soldering wires to it and will be mounting it into a plastic vhs box from blockbuster, (barely fits),  along with barrier strips.

one thing i will note, but i dont know if it is just my setup.  i am using it with a laptop which has only 1 usb input and 1 ps/2 input.  i soldered  a ps/2 splitter together according to a schematic i found online which lets me use a mouse and kb at the same time.  i have a usb kb plugged in the usb slot.  my splitter works but my encoder board seems to stop working sometimes.  i have been testing the board by pressing the f1 button that is directly on it.  i am fairly certain the soldering job is ok.  but my trackball unit does have 3 superbright red leds in it so im wondering if its just an issue of limited power supply..


the creator has elaborated on some information in his ebay listing:

Quote:
Additional Information. Since I have listed this item I have received hundreds of E-mails asking some common questions. Here are the answers to some of these questions in paraphrase format:


Does this encoder use a matrix, and how does it send key data to the PC?


This device encodes each input as a single keystroke. When the input pin goes LOW (pulled to GROUND) the encoder will send the corresponding keycode ONCE, then remain inactive until the input pin goes HIGH (open). At that time, the encoder will send the BREAK CODE to the PC. The encoder is NOT typematic. The encoder operates on the SINGLE IDENTITY principle where each input sends only the make code once. The encoder does NOT use a matrix, nor is it built around a matrixed chip that has been "dematrixed" by external circuitry. This encoder will not ghost, block or drop keystrokes. Since it is not a matrix, the problem with matrix key "duplication" does not exist. This encoder was designed originally to be used on very expensive, very high end gambling machines used in Las Vegas, Atlantic City, Monte Carlo and other famous places where gaming machines are played. Therefore, since the board would be used in gambling and would be responsible for handling REAL money, special precautions were written into the code to protect the single identity operations and to be absolutely sure no keystrokes would drop.


Will this encoder overrun the PC's keyboard buffer and cause lost control of the buttons?


Since this encoder only sends the keystroke once (non-typematic) it is very difficult if not impossible to overrun the PC's keyboard buffer (overrunning the keyboard buffer is a common problem with MAME, the results is lost keystrokes, missed "moves" or the loss of joystick control). Once the PC receives a key MAKE code and acts upon it, the keyboard chip will remove the keystroke from the buffer. How the keyboard buffer overruns in the first place is through the overuse of the typematic function, where too many keystrokes are sent too fast. Since this board has ALL of the PC keyboard command interpreters on board, the encoder can interpret the STOP command, where the PC tells the encoder to WAIT until a free buffer spot is open. The encoder can hold up to 400 keystrokes in its buffer, so with the combination of the large keyboard buffer and command interpreter, this keyboard encoder will not overrun the PC's keyboard buffer and thus drop keystrokes.


I cannot "guarantee" the usefulness of this board for your particular application, but when I used one of these boards to build myself a MAME play-all cabinet nearly 2 years ago, I haven't had a single problem whatsoever with it, and I am playing complex control panel games like Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter II, Time Killers, Gauntlet and a variety of others, and have plenty of inputs left over for future expansion. When playing games like Track N' Field, the encoder does not miss a single lick of the RUN button no matter how fast it is tapped.
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Re:Encoder Comparison Pages Back Online
Reply #35 on: August 23, 2004, 11:16:54 AM
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Quote from: Bgnome on August 18, 2004, 04:47:35 PM
This device encodes each input as a single keystroke. When the input pin goes LOW (pulled to GROUND) the encoder will send the corresponding keycode ONCE, then remain inactive until the input pin goes HIGH (open). At that time, the encoder will send the BREAK CODE to the PC. The encoder is NOT typematic. The encoder operates on the SINGLE IDENTITY principle where each input sends only the make code once.

Something about the above bothers me.  Typematic is not a problem for MAME, but I am wondering about the code only being sent once. 

Could someone test the following:

Start Tiger-Heli in MAME using a standard keyboard and hold down the fire key.  The heli should fire 1-2 shots per second at a constant rate.

Now try it with the two-bit encoder.  Does the heli behave the same way, or does it only fire one shot and no additional ones.

Thanks for helping out.

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Re:Encoder Comparison Pages Back Online
Reply #37 on: August 23, 2004, 07:49:55 PM
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Quote from: Tiger-Heli on August 23, 2004, 11:16:54 AM
Could someone test the following:

Start Tiger-Heli in MAME using a standard keyboard and hold down the fire key.  The heli should fire 1-2 shots per second at a constant rate.

Now try it with the two-bit encoder.  Does the heli behave the same way, or does it only fire one shot and no additional ones.

Thanks for helping out.


ok, i did the following test on my win98se pII laptop.  i believe i was running an older version of mame (v0.66 dos pentium optimized i think).  ran tigerhb1.
started the game using my usb keyboard.  held down L Ctrl for a few seconds and proceded to blow up some stuff.  Then I pressed P to pause, while holding L Ctrl.  i released the fire key when the game paused.
i wired CNx7-5 on the Two Bit encoder to ground.  this input corresponds to L Ctrl.  i dont have buttons yet so i just jumpered it to ground using my screw terminals.  Pressed P on my usb keybaord to unpause the game.  the heli kept shooting at the same rate.  i paused again and unhooked the wire.  it stopped shooting.  i held L Ctrl on my usb keyboard one more time to double check and proceded to fire at the same rate again.

bottom line:  works as normal so far..

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Re:Encoder Comparison Pages Back Online
Reply #42 on: August 24, 2004, 06:49:14 AM
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Quote from: Bgnome on August 23, 2004, 07:49:55 PM
Quote from: Tiger-Heli on August 23, 2004, 11:16:54 AM
Could someone test the following:

Start Tiger-Heli in MAME using a standard keyboard and hold down the fire key.  The heli should fire 1-2 shots per second at a constant rate.

Now try it with the two-bit encoder.  Does the heli behave the same way, or does it only fire one shot and no additional ones.

Thanks for helping out.


ok, i did the following test on my win98se pII laptop.  i believe i was running an older version of mame (v0.66 dos pentium optimized i think).  ran tigerhb1.
started the game using my usb keyboard.  held down L Ctrl for a few seconds and proceded to blow up some stuff.  Then I pressed P to pause, while holding L Ctrl.  i released the fire key when thstarted the game using my usb keyboard.  held down L Ctrl for a few seconds and proceded to blow up some stuff.  Then I pressed P to pause, while holding L Ctrl.  i released the fire key when the game paused.
i wired CNx7-5 on the Two Bit encoder to ground.  this input corresponds to L Ctrl.  i dont have buttons yet so i just jumpered it to ground using my screw terminals.  Pressed P on my usb keybaord to unpause the game.  the heli kept shooting at the same rate.  i paused again and unhooked the wire.  it stopped shooting.  i held L Ctrl on my usb keyboard one more time to double check and proceded to fire at the same rate again.

bottom line:  works as normal so far..

Exactly the data I was looking for.  Thanks for testing!

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